Ralph Winterowd Interviews Jean Keating
December 19, 2023

[Ralph]            Before I bring Jean on I just want to get a real brief update, the bankruptcy case in California where the trustee has no official bond—that’s been proven by us, by the other parties actually. And also the notices of federal tax lien, they’ve admitted that they’re invalid and they’re playing the little games so that one’s headed off to the 9^th circuit on a writ of mandamus. The case of Dillingham, I have permission now from Dave Gladin[sp?] to put that out to the internet. We have filed a quiet title action taking on the city of Dillingham and involved in that also you can make the IRS cough up their liens if they’re valid or invalid so that’s going to be an interesting case. We just got all of the Superior Court documentation from Jackson McCormick that took them on and a lawyer screwed him up and sold him out but the documentation is there. There are no ordinances for that so that’s coming up. Chuck Davis’ case on the Department of Transportation. The little traffic citation we had the feds over there in this last case and a couple of the top dogs of DOT and Mike Rogers, a little slimy sucker that’s writing these citations and a couple of cops turning out for what they never even have anybody and that’s what your quasi-criminal stuff is—that’s all commercial.  I’ll probably do a show on that next week. ON the traffic citations now we can prove that you are taking your “motor vehicle” and giving it away and entering it into the world of commerce where you are a debtor—they’re a secured party—and then you’re agreeing because they’re the equitable owner that they can have rents and fees and tax you and control you. It’s going to be an element that you can prove in every state now. So, that was heating up. There’s one in the 11^th circuit, a mandamus. There’s another case on reduce to judgment that I got to get back to—discovery’s still open again where the other side is refusing to answer one interrogatory, one admission, because they can’t. And anyway, there’s a lot of stuff coming. It’s going to be a damned good 2023 and it’s going to end 2023 because we’re finally now starting to understand and that’s why having Jean Keating on today is to understand I’m involved, friend, just doing the research on it, it’s on mortgages and foreclosures and the promissory notes and that. I need to understand it. It’s a plague upon our country. With that I’m going to bring on Jean Keating. He’s very knowledgeable in commercial law and some other areas that he was talking about last week on land and property. Are you there, Jean?

[Jean]               Yeah, go ahead.

[Ralph]            Well, why don’t we start off—I would like to and I know we got a lot of listeners. We went down on an attorney firm up here of a friend of mine and they said, ‘oh, the original documents are with the attorney firm.’ Well, that attorney firm we got from Donna Baran before, they’re involved in collection stuff. They can’t be doing what they’re doing so they’ve handed it off to another company, Lane Powell, up here, a law firm, and so my friend and I went down there and said, ‘well, by the way, we’re here to look at the original documents,’ and that attorney you could see the blood drain of his face—Parthow, I think is his name.  So he left and then a little paralegal came in and she said, ‘well, this is all the ones we have in my file.’ I said, ‘no, I need the ones in Lane Powell’s file.’ ‘Well, this is all we have.’ And on that, they had a document. They didn’t have the originals, of course, and over the top of that there was three different times they said, ‘without recourse, pay to the order of,’ and it went from—let’s see here—First Magnus Financial Corporation, Countrywide Home Loans, and the other one is Countrywide Home Loans—there’s two of them on there with two different signatures. So, what I would like for you to do today, what the hell is going on with what we call deeds of trusts or mortgages and promissory notes. What is really going on and then what is our remedy? How can we use what’s in the commercial law to take these criminals and crucify them and hang on to our property? Give me some help here. What’s happened on this without recourse stuff?

[Jean]               Well, that’s a material alteration of the note. These notes are non-negotiable instruments. They’re not notes, they’re securities.

[Ralph]            What the notes are called and is it the deed of trust, the promissory note or all of it?

[Jean]               Well, the whole thing, the deed of trust is a security. If you get the 1933 SEC Handbook, when a deed of trust is in the hands of a third party, managed by the hands of a third party, it’s a security.

[Ralph]            And what’s this book?

[Jean]               It’s called the SEC Handbook of 1933. You can download it on-line. I’ve got it on the other computer.

[Ralph]            Ok, so is it on a homepage of yours?

[Jean]               Well, no, it’s in the handbook. It says on page 22, it says, when a deed of trust is in the managerial hands of a 3^rd party it’s a security.

[Ralph]            What do I search on, on the internet to be able to find this because people are going to look this stuff—they want documentation.

[Jean]               Securities Handbook of 1933 is what it’s called—SEC. You just put SEC Handbook 1933. I’ve got it on the other computer.

[Ralph]            Ok, but it is available on the internet for anybody to download?

[Jean]               Yeah. You have to understand that you’re dealing in securities and what the attorneys are doing is issuing a warrant of an attorney. Now, a warrant of attorney is an option, it’s called a warrant’s option, to buy stock in equity securities.

[Ralph]            And how did we enter into that world, how did we get there doing that?

[Jean]               They did it under the statute of frauds. They did a loan modification at closing by under a pooling and servicing agreement by selling the security to investors which is contract between the servicing company and the investors. That’s where your mortgage payments are going. If you go to the Temco Bond website and look under mortgage-backed securities, it explains to you what goes on. This is totally invisible to the borrower.

[Ralph]            Ok, let’s go back to the beginning here. I have a deed of trust and that’s one of the things they’re going to want my signature, nobody else signs it. There’s going to be a promissory note, that’s going to be my signature. Now is each one of those negotiable or are they both non-negotiable, are they securities or what is a deed of trust, what is a promissory note and what else do we do when we go in there and they’re shellacking us and getting us set up?

[Jean]               In theory and practice the deed of trust represents the mortgage. The note represents the obligation attached to the mortgage. The note is the corpus or the body of the deed of trust which is a trust in common law. In law it’s a trust, in equity it’s a lien interest.

[Ralph]            Now, say that again.

[Jean]               A deed of trust is a trust under common law and it’s a lien interest under equity. In the ancient times in 1066 what they used to do is you gave the deed of trust to the mortgager, gave him the note, he took over possession of the property. He stayed on the property until you paid off the loan. Then he gave you the deed of trust and the note back and you got your property back.

[Ralph]            The originals?

[Jean]               Yeah. This is in ancient times. This goes clear back to the Norman Conquest to the Duke of Normandy. That’s when they started using these deeds of trust. And they got the people to surrender, this is why you’re in a periodic tenancy, landlord tenant relationship. When you register or record a deed of trust it’s called insinuation under the civil law. You donate your property. You do an alienation of right, title and interest in the property to the county recorder who acts as a trustee. You have a donor/donee relationship. What people are doing is they don’t understand that the donor is the holder of the power of appointment under Class 5 gift and estate taxes. This is given to the donor in 1951 under the Holder of the Power of Appointment Act of 1951. This is codified to Title 26, the section is 2038, 2041 and 2514. You could fire the trustee but nobody does anything, nobody exercises their power, so they do it.

[Ralph]            Ok, so let’s go back to the beginning here. I walk in there and I think I’m getting money and I don’t have enough money to buy the property. And the documents I’m going to see is a promissory note and a deed of trust.

[Jean]               There is no money—how could there be a loan?

[Ralph]            Well, I understand that.

[Jean]               Why does everybody go in there and argue, ‘where’s the note?’ It’s not a note, it’s a security.

[Ralph]            Ok. The promissory note, number one, is one that they’re going to make me sign if I want to think I own property. So, when I do that, that is a security—right?

[Jean]               Yeah. Doesn’t the deed of trust say you own the property? You hold it in….  It’s lawfully…that the below described property and hereby transfers all right, title, and interest to the below described property to the lender. If you didn’t own it how did you transfer it to the lender?

[Ralph]            Ok. Well, let’s go back again to the promissory note. That is a security, is that correct?

[Jean]               Yes. Go read Title 15, Section 78CA10 and 77A1. All notes with a maturity of nine months or more are securities or investment contracts.

[Ralph]            We going to try to understand what promissory notes and deeds of trust are and then what’s the remedy. So, Jean, you’re saying that the promissory note is a security. Is that correct?

[Jean]               That’s correct. I can prove that.

[Ralph]            We’re the only ones that signed ourselves. So what we’re doing is we are lending our signature to a security, is that correct?

[Jean]               Yes. You’re a party {patsy?} to an investment contract and you didn’t lay a claim to the security under Article 8 as an adverse claim so they claimed it.

[Ralph]            I’m not following you.

[Jean]               Well, they claimed it. It’s abandoned property.

[Ralph]            Ok…let’s take it a step at a time. I walk into the office and I see this property and these guys, they’re going to say, ‘well, we’ll let you be tenants on the land,’ or whatever. They’re not going to tell me what’s going on. I walk in and they say, ‘sign here,’ so I sign the promissory note—that’s a security. Now, you’re saying that security [is an] investment document?

[Jean]               It doesn’t say in the deed of trust that you are lawfully seised of the below described property. That means you owned it before you ever took out the loan.  {Seisi: In old English law, seised; possessed. See, seisin. Seize: To put in possession, invest with fee simple, be seized of or in, be legal possessor of, or be holder in fee simple.} Well, if you owned it before you took out the loan why would you take out a loan if you already own it.

[Ralph]            Well, how could I own it if I have it in somebody else’s name and I haven’t done anything yet? I haven’t signed anything yet. How could I own is as far as…

[Jean]               The deed of trust says that you’re lawfully seised of the below described property and you hereby transfer all right, title and interest in the property. If you transfer right, title and interest that means you own it otherwise you couldn’t transfer it.

[Ralph]            So what we’re saying, all at same time, in a nanosecond, when this transaction is going on I’m agreeing that I actually own it so I then sign the deed of trust myself and hand it over to somebody else. I sign the promissory note which is a security investment document—right?

[Jean]               Investment contract—right. And then they turn around and do a pooling and servicing agreement and sell the security to investors.

[Ralph]            They sell the promissory note by itself or with the deed of trust?

[Jean]               They sell them both. They both go together. The note and the deed of trust cannot be separated because the corpus of the deed of trust is the note. When you sell the note or transfer the note the deed goes with it. So they take the deed of trust and the note and they’re sold to investors. They hypothecate them to them. Now, they never really transferred them. This is where the fraud comes in and all these employees of Countrywide, Bank of America, are coming into court and testifying that they never transferred any of the notes. That means that the REMIC’s which are Real Estate Mortgage Investment Conduit, that’s what a REMIC is, it’s a Real Estate Investment Trust. And they use these Real Estate Investment Trusts to get out of paying the capital transfer tax. If they pay out 90% of their total taxable income on the REMIC to investors they don’t have to pay taxes on the interest and dividends that they pay out.

[Ralph]            Ok. So let’s back up here. The original documents, where the hell are those original documents going?

[Jean]               They have them, the servicing company has them. What they do is they sell them to Freddy Mac or Fanny Mae which are FHAs—it’s an FHA loan, it’s a HUD loan. And all HUD loans are FHA insured. That’s why the FBI went in there and confiscated all of Freddy Mac’s and Fanny Mae’s loan documents. They have the abstracts of title which shows that the loan was paid off in full at closing.

[Ralph]            Ok, so let’s back up here. We got a security investment document, promissory note, the deed of trust and the corpus that’s in the deed of trust?

[Jean]               Yeah. The corpus or the note which is in the deed of trust is the corpus of the trust and you can’t separate the two because if you remove the corpus it terminates or collapses the trust.

[Ralph]            Ok, what’s corpus mean?

[Jean]               Body.  …like when you have a crime, like when you murder somebody you have a corpus delecti, a dead body. That’s the corpus. The dead body is the corpus or the evidence of the crime.

[Ralph]            Ok, so the corpus is which one, the note?

[Jean]               The note, the promissory note is the corpus of the deed of trust which is the mortgage. The deed of trust represents the mortgage. The note represents the obligation attached to the mortgage and you can’t separate the two because they’re connected. The body or corpus of the deed of trust is the note and they’re pretending to transfer or sell them and they don’t, they can’t, because it collapses the trust if they do that.

[Ralph]            Let’s go back to the deed of trust. If you have a trust you got to have somebody granting it. You got to have a trustee and you got to have…

[Jean]               You’re the grantor/settler of the trust, the deed of trust. You’re also the donor and the donor has the power. It’s the holder of the power of appointment. He can fire the trustee.

[Ralph]            And who is the trustee as soon as I walk out of that building?

[Jean]               Well, they appoint them. Read your deed of trust. They appoint a trustee.

[Ralph]            Which is who?

[Jean]               And then they do what they call a confessed judgment or power of sale. You can fire that but nobody’s exercising that power. You can fire the trustee.

[Ralph]            You’re saying, ‘ok, I am a trustee,’ actually, ‘or a trustor and I’m also a donor,’ is that what you’re saying in setting up this deed of trust?

[Jean]               Yeah, because you donated your property.

[Ralph]            And I gave it away to, who did I give it to?

[Jean]               You gave it to the trustee.

[Ralph]            But the trustee only takes care of it. Who has the thing?

[Jean]               Well, you study insinuation under the civil law you’ll find out that when you do a transcription of the recording of a deed you transfer right, title and interest to the property to the trustee which is the registrar. The counties own all the property. That’s why they do an ad valorem tax and that’s why they tax your property because you overlaid your metes and bounds property, the land description, onto their right-of-way in the deed of trust and they’re taxing you on their right-of-way. You don’t own the right-of-way. You own the land but your land is commingled with the property description which is real estate and they’re taxing that. That’s what the property tax is. They take the ad valorem tax which they collect from you as a property tax because you registered the deed and they use that to buy mortgage-backed securities. So you had a loan on your property before they ever had a loan, before you ever had the mortgage loan.

[Ralph]            Ok, I’m confused here because as I understand deeds here and properties the person that has what’s called the thing, the right of property, is the equitable owner, right of property, cestui que trust, they have a right to do ad valorem, they can collect rents and fees and that’s the equitable owner, which I’ve seen in the latest bank…

[Jean]               You donated the property to the county when you registered the deed.

[Ralph]            Donated the right of property to them?

[Jean]               You donated the right, title and interest to the property. Now, the registrar who acts as trustee charges you rent on the property and you pay them—that’s what property tax is. {ryot tenure – terrible British system first used in India against the Ryots (farmers).} That’s called ad valorem tax in Texas. They take the ad valorem revenue and they buy mortgage-backed securities with them. Most all your states are doing this and they’re doing this at the county level.

[Ralph]            Ok, then, who is the right of property vested in? Is that vested in…

[Jean]               If you stop paying your property tax you’ll find out who owns it. The state auditor will sell your property. They’ll do a tax sale and sell your property to the highest bidder.

[Ralph]            Right. But there’s three parts to property, possession, right of possession, right of property That’s in the world of property.

[Jean]               You have the right to possession but not title and ownership as long as you pay the rent. {sounds downright feudal, doesn’t it? } It’s just like a landlord/tenant relationship. When you stop paying rent the landlord can do an unlawful detainer and have you thrown out on the street.

[Ralph]            Right, I agree. So that makes me the trustee because I’m paying rents to the person that owns....   I have the right of possession as long as I agree with the guy that has the right of property and he’s saying to sit on my property you got to pay me property taxes and all this other bullshit. Right?

[Jean]               Yeah. Well, the registrar acts as the trustee over the deed of trust.

[Ralph]            Ok, then who is the beneficiary? There has to be a beneficiary. Who owns it?

[Jean]               What they do is they sell shares to the deed of trust to investors as mortgage-backed securities. They do the same thing on a mortgage. The investors are the beneficiaries or the underwriters that underwrite the securities.

[Ralph]            Ok, so the investors are the people that are sitting behind the scenes as the equitable owner or the beneficial owner of the right of property. They own the thing and they’re then charging me to sit on the land but you’re saying that the recorder of the deeds is the trustee?

[Jean]               Is the trustee—yeah—over the deed of trust.

[Ralph]            Ok, and my position, once that deed of trust is recorded is still back to the trustor and donor, that’s it?

[Jean]               Well, the trustee has the power. You gave him the power by registering the deed. Don’t register the deed—give them the note and walk out at closing. Do not give them the deed of trust. When you gave them the deed of trust you sold the farm.

[Ralph]            Ok, can you do that? 

[Jean]               Yes. I had a federal judge tell one of my students to do that. When you go to closing give them the note and walk out with the deed of trust. Do not give them the deed of trust. A federal judge told him this.

[Ralph]            Ok, and do not register?

[Jean]               Right, do not register it.

[Ralph]            Ok. Once it’s registered do they take them and register them? Can you undo that?

[Jean]               Yes.

[Ralph]            And how would we do that?

[Jean]               You do a reformation. You take the metes and boundaries. You got to bring a surveyor out there if you don’t know what your metes and boundaries are. Metes and bounds, it’s called, which is your land description, not property description. And I’m making a distinction between property and real estate. Property is real estate and land, there’s a difference between property, real estate and land. Land is designated under the common law by metes and bounds. Property is described by range, lot number, section number and township number which is in your land patent. That’s property, not land.

[Ralph]            Ok, go ahead. I want to know how to kill this deed of trust and get back in control here. Go ahead.

[Jean]               Well, you get a surveyor out there. This is how they used to do it under the common law. The county courts were the land courts. Go get your original Constitution. The county courts were…, then they changed the name of the county courts to probate courts or surrogate court. I have an old 1800 book on estate law. And the county courts were called surrogate courts but when they changed the Constitution—like in California the original Constitution was 1849—they called them county courts.  Then in 1879 they changed the Constitution and they called them probate courts. Those are your land courts. And what you want to do is get a surveyor to do a metes and bounds land description with metes and bounds—no range number, township number, lot number, section number.

[Ralph]            Ok, I get that. What’s the next step?

[Jean]               Well then, you file a petition with the probate court for a quiet title and you publish in the newspaper that you own right, title and interest by metes and boundaries of the below described land described by metes and boundaries and you publish that in a newspaper. If they don’t come in there and dispute the land description which is designated in metes and bounds then you have lawful title and ownership of the land.

[Ralph]            Ok. How many times do you publish it in the newspaper?

[Jean]               You do it for, I believe, it’s for 14 days. You can ask the newspaper guy when you do this.

[Ralph]            That’s why I’m asking you, though. Do you have to publish it—because I thought you had to publish it three times and wait 90 days? But I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking you. Do you know, or not?

[Jean]               I don’t know what the length of time is on it—no.

[Ralph]            Do you know the number of times you have to publish it?

[Jean]               I believe it’s – well, the case that I’m referring to, they published it once.

[Ralph]            Ok, well let’s say it’s once or three, whatever and then you would file a quiet title action and, of course…

[Jean]               What they do is they do a declaratory judgment that you own the property. You have allodial title to the property because they didn’t come in there and dispute it. How are they going to come in there and dispute it once they bring the note in there and they can’t do that. That’s how you force them to produce the note.

[Ralph]            Ok, if it’s tied into a land patent, the code or the section says, anything that’s granted by United States land patent, the original jurisdiction sits in the federal courts.

[Jean]               Right. That’s property description. That’s not land description. They mongrelized the deed of trust by putting in the range number, lot number and township number in there and section number.

[Ralph]            Well, how am I going to defeat the feds because as soon as I file in state court I got to bring in United States because anybody that’s tied it in to the land patent is going to say, ‘oh no, it’s tied into the land patent and that’s original jurisdiction in the fed court and they’re going to automatically move it.

[Jean]               Well, do the metes and boundaries. The metes and boundaries is not under the land patent. It’s a land description. You’re not doing a property description, you’re doing a land description. You’re doing a quiet title to the land, not the property. They overlay their right-of-way onto your land and then they tax you for it.

[Ralph]            I understand that ok. So, the next step is once you get the quiet title and you own the land then that invalidates the deed of trust?

[Jean]               Yes.

[Ralph]            And then you have to prove that the deed of trust…

[Jean]               Well, if they’re going to dispute it they have to come in there and dispute it.

[Ralph]            So, then it becomes yours and anything that’s attached to it is null and void then. Any purported deed of trust or promissory note is done.

[Jean]               Right. If they had a lien interest or a title interest in the property they have to come in there and dispute it and they can’t do that. That’s why they never produce the note. They don’t have the note.

[Ralph]            Now, you’re saying there’s one person that has done this?

[Jean]               Yeah, this is how they used to do this in the early 1900s in California. Go read the Robinson v. Carrigan case. I have the actual case and it tells you in there how to do a—and you did it in the county courts. This is what they called the local rule venue or local action rule.

[Ralph]            Ok, and what’s that case cite so people can look it up?

[Jean]               The name of the case is Robinson v. Carrigan. I’ll have to look up the case here…

[Ralph]            Why don’t you do that during the break time here when we go over the top of the hour or something so people can follow through with this?

[Jean]               Ok.

[Ralph]            We have a couple callers and then we’re going to get back into this again here. Mark in Texas, you’re next.

[Mark]             I’ve never heard anything like that before. Guys, back in 2005 I received the release of lien from BAC and the reason I never filed with the county which is simply for litigious reasons, I didn’t want to put into the public domain that I actually owned the property supposedly. So now, all I have to do is publish in a newspaper for 14 days with the metes and bounds.

[Jean]               I got a book that explains this, what the difference is between property description and the metes and the bounds. The metes and bounds…

[Mark]             I understand about the lot numbers and all that stuff that really is the city or the county designation as opposed to the surveying designation—I got you on that.

[Jean]               That’s the difference between land and property or what you call real estate. And the probate court is your county court that has the jurisdiction and venue over land, not with property.

[Mark]             It was supposed to until they came up with this cockamamie scheme called MERS where they did the electronic registering.

[Jean]               Well, that doesn’t have any…  Then they have to come in there if they have a claim, then they have to come in there. But they can’t come in there because they don’t have one.

[Mark]             What I’m saying is though they skirted the county authority which is still what’s still up in the air as far as who actually owns the property and who owns the note. I know you’re aware of all the MERS stuff that’s going on.

[Jean]               Yeah, Mortgage and Electronic Registration System.

[Mark]             Right. And that pretty much took the county out of the loop.

[Jean]               Well, what took the county out of the loop was the property description and the deed of trust. There never was a mortgage. MERS doesn’t have anything to do with that.

[Mark]             Well, MERS is just a registration but then when you file…

[Jean]               You had a mortgage on the property when you registered the deed.

[Mark]             Well, if you didn’t register the deed—in other words, the bank registered the deed, the mortgage lender registered the deed. I just paid it off and got the release of lien and then once I’ve received the release of lien I didn’t register it with the county.

[Jean]               Ok, then they can’t tax your property if you didn’t register the deed.

[Mark]             But since 2005 this is news to me. I like the way you’re talking. But, see, like I told you before, I did it for litigious reasons. I didn’t want to go into the public domain as being registered which is common knowledge. You can go on the internet and find out who owns what and I don’t want my name on there, not that I’ve ever been sued and I’ve never sued anybody else but I didn’t want to put my name out there as a possible—hey, there’s a gold mine right there—he owns the property. That was my reasoning behind not registering it with the county.

[Ralph]            But you’re actually still paying property taxes on it?

[Mark]             Oh, you betcha. I still get that every year.

[Ralph]            Well, see, what I’m trying to do is with this show here, first of all, let’s understand how they have talked us out of our property. How did we lose the land which is…

[Jean]               They didn’t talk you out of it, you gave it away—you donated it.

[Ralph]            I can prove that with motor vehicles which I’m going to do and that goes into every traffic citation. The bottom line is how in the hell…

[Jean]               The same thing when you register a car. You transfer right, title and interest in the vehicle. I have a court case down in Tennessee where the head of the DMV came into court and testified that they own all the vehicles. They almost had a riot in the courtroom.

[Ralph]            It’s statutory—they tell you that. Every state has it. It says register is a certificated security. A registered owner makes you a debtor and they have a perfected security interest in it. That’s in every state and right in the statutes. I mean, it’s black and white and that’s when…show on, what type of an insane person would own his property, go over and give it to this fiction in law so that you, then, they own the thing and then they can tax me and control me and make me get a driver’s license, make me get insurance and have these police that have no police power go out there and beat the living piss out of me, who in his right mind would do that?

[Mark]             Well, guys, right now, what I have reservations about is what’s fixing to happen with all the code enforcement at the residential level.

[Ralph]            They own the property. Let’s go to the next caller. Curt, in North Carolina, we may have to hold you over. Got a question?

[Curt]              From what he’s saying that just changing the property from metes and bounds, change it into metes and bounds that alone keeps the banks from being able to apply a mortgage to it or a mortgage law to it?

[Jean]               Yeah, because they don’t own the land, they own the property. There never was a mortgage. You don’t understand what’s going on. There never was a mortgage. They got you to put up your property as collateral for an alleged loan but there never was a loan.

[Ralph]            Well, they didn’t get us to put up our property. If I can re-state this. We had the land and we gave away the land to enter it into the world of property for a note that is in securities and the deed of trust and we gave it all away and then if I can remember from what you said last week—correct me—as soon as that thing is done they get around and all of the financing or whatever you want to call it, this hocus pocus, it’s already paid for, is that correct?

[Jean]               Yeah.

[Curt]              The only distinction between them owning your land and you owning your land is by the description of the land boundaries.

[Jean]               Yeah.

[Curt]              Being in metes and bounds versus…

[Jean]               Property, the property description is they own the property description, not the land description which is the metes and boundaries and what they’ve done is they overlaid their property description over on your land description and you recorded it so now you got to pay rent.

[Curt]              Does either one of those properties have first interest in it?

[Jean]               Yeah, the land does.

[Curt]              The land is paramount?

[Jean]               Yeah, if you take the land out of the property description then they can’t tax it.

[Curt]              So, just going into metes and bounds and when you go to probate court whoever has a mortgage…on your land they can’t respond?

[Jean]               They can’t come in there and do anything. If you want this case, this Robinson case, you read this. It’s 90 Pacific 129 or 151 Cal 40, 151 Cal Reports, page 40. It’s a 1907 case. The determination of land titles under the Torrens Land Act which is a registration act.

[Ralph]            Yeah, that Torrens, that the word, that came about in 1850s or somewhere.

{Torrens Title System. A system for registration of land under which, upon the land owner’s application, the court may, after appropriate proceedings, direct the issuance of a certificate of title. With exceptions, this certificate is conclusive as to applicant’s estate in land.  System of registration of land title as distinguished from registration or recording of evidence of such title.  The originator of the system was Sir Richard Torrens, 1814 - 1884, reformer of Australian Land Laws.}

[Jean]               Yeah, they started doing that under the land patents. They started doing land registrations. That’s so they could get control of your land. People fall for this hook, line and sinker.

[Curt]              This is astounding. I appreciate your help and I just look forward to the rest of the show.

[Jean]               Read this case and you’ll understand what’s going on. It tells you in there. The land court is called the local action rule and I go into this on my Tuesday night classes. I have classes on Tuesday night. I go into all this.

[Ralph]            We got several callers but before we get to that I forgot last time, give people how to get a hold of you and that because I forgot that last week and we need to get that in there. How do they get a hold of you?

[Jean]               You contact Toby dot Butterworth, Thousand Oaks in Skype. You Skype him. That’s his skype name. Skype him and tell him you want to join the legacy classes.

[Ralph]            Ok, we’ll follow up. We got four more callers here. Agencies are done. We’re going to get to the bottom of this nonsense… 

We’re going to get to the bottom of this mortgage foreclosure nonsense and I’m telling you what, we are going to beat these SOBs. I’m telling you, I saw a thing about Joe Banister. Why didn’t anybody look at the jury instructions. They put in there what I’ve been talking about—never seen it before—about assessment. You can’t have a collection without an assessment. There is no legal duty without assessment. They put it in this jury instruction. He knew they knew…

[Jean]               You know why they can’t assess it?

[Ralph]            Yeah, absolutely. You give me your answer and I’ll give you one because that happens to be my area of expertise. Go ahead.

[Jean]               Well, because it’s your money, it’s your credit.

[Ralph]            Nope. I’ll tell you why they can’t because the 6203 mandates because we have this headless fourth branch of government that Mr. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, that’s a thing that he wanted to research. It’s down in a book that I’ve got. It’s his book, Governments, for 400 pages and the bottom line is the only liability they can do for assessment which is the only way they can come after us they’re in the land of Oz. To puncture that and go through the portal and go back to the law—us. They have to promulgate regulations in the Federal Register for assessment. There are no regulations for assessment. They’ve never been promulgated. The only ones are for federal employees, 301, which I can prove are for feds and those don’t have—they’re smoke and mirrors, number one, because they are not behind the table of contents and number two, there is no district director or internal revenue district which is in that reg. That’s provable—statutory—conclusive.

Let’s get back on mortgages and foreclosures. Scott, California—question?

[Scott]             I have a question here.  …the metes and bounds description of the land, publishing and a quiet title action in your opinion can this be done on a property that has been foreclosed upon?

[Jean]               Yes.

[Scott]             Ok, I’d like to hear a little more about that. I’m sure the other listeners would also. And, Ralph, I just sent you an e-mail to a link of a properly promulgated regulation by the United States Coast Guard in complete compliance with 553… and I’ll take the rest on the air—thank you, guys.

[Ralph]            I’ve never seen one. I’d be glad to see one. Ok, great, so you want to comment anymore on what he said there? Has anybody done that on foreclosed properties?

[Jean]               Yeah, I have.

[Ralph]            And?

[Jean]               They took it off the tax rolls.

[Ralph]            And you’re in the house or living on it or what are you doing with the property, the land?

[Jean]               The people are still in the house. This is seven years ago.

[Ralph]            And the house had been foreclosed on or was going into foreclosure?

[Jean]               It was in foreclosure. We took it out of the tax rolls, put the land metes and bounds description in there and they took it off the tax rolls.

[Ralph]            Ok, what did he do exactly? Just give us a summary here. What did you do?

[Jean]               I brought a surveyor out and do a metes and bounds land description and he knew what that was. We made up a new deed of trust and took the other deed of trust out of the records.

[Ralph]            So you wrote your own deed of trust?

[Jean]               Yeah.

[Ralph]            And where would we find a model of that type of deed of trust?

[Jean]               I could probably get you one. I’d have to get it off my other computer. It’s on my other computer.

[Ralph]            Ok, that’s fine so then you wrote up a new deed of trust and the reason why you could write up a new one is because you are what?

[Jean]               I’m the donor, the grantor, settler and donor of the property.

[Ralph]            So you’re firing the where it’s recorded if what you’re saying is true and I’m not doubting that it is. You’re firing where it’s recorded in the—you said who in the county, the county recorder is the trustee?

[Jean]               Yeah, the registrar is the trustee. You gave him jurisdiction over your land by recording it.

[Ralph]            The acts of the registrar of the…

[Jean]               Yeah, he’s called the registrar.

[Ralph]            Ok, so that is the trustee. So you’re right, so you wrote up a new deed of trust. Go ahead, then what did you do?

[Jean]               Well, I made them take it. We replaced that with the new deed of trust.

[Ralph]            How did you accomplish that?

[Jean]               We got rid of it. We got rid of the old one.

[Ralph]            Well, how did you get rid of it? Well, we have one that’s saying that it’s recorded so what did you do, did you re-record a new one?

[Jean]               Yeah, we got rid of the old one by recording a new one with the metes and bounds in it. They took the property off of the tax rolls.

[Ralph]            Ok, by re-recording it and putting it back into land then you fired the trustee, the registrar, is that correct?

[Jean]               Yeah.

[Ralph]            So then all you did was create a public record? Is that true?

[Jean]               Yeah.

[Ralph]            And who was the new trustee?

[Jean]               We were.

[Ralph]            Who was the beneficiary?

[Jean]               The guy that I did the deed of trust for. You can be both the grantor/settler, the trustee and the beneficiary.

[Ralph]            I thought that was illegal in a trust.

[Jean]               No, absolutely not. Lawyers tell you that but they’re full of you know what.

[Ralph]            Ok, so the party that had all of these positions was who again?

[Jean]               Well, the registrar is the trustee and…

[Ralph]            No, I’m talking about on the land, the one that killed the other one. Who had all those positions?

[Jean]               The grantor/settler. The donor.

[Ralph]            Ok, and that was you or that was the people that have the land now?

[Jean]               Well, the people that had the land. It wasn’t me because I just did the work. I made them the donor, grantor, settler, beneficiary and trustee. You need to get the book called The Complete Book of Wills, Estates and Trusts by Alexander Bove.

[Ralph]            And where’s that available?

[Jean]               On-line. You can buy it on-line. He tells you that you can be the beneficiary, grantor/settler and trustee all rolled into one. And the lawyers will tell you that you can’t do that.

[Ralph]            And what year is that? Let’s get to the callers here because we got a bunch more questions. We got callers that have been patient in holding here. Ok, Chad, Alaska, you’re next.

[Chad]             Hi, I wondering if there’s any modifications to anything you’re saying if somebody buys the land with cash and never has a mortgage and, for example, I bought land with cash and I just have a mobile home that’s not attached to the actual land.

[Jean]               If it’s on the land it’s attached to it.

[Chad]             Well, no, I mean it’s just on blocks. It doesn’t have tie-downs or anything that attaches it to the land.

[Jean]               They call that a fixture. If you have a deed of trust it’s attached to the property. They call it a fixture. And that’s what they take because it’s a fixture attached to the property.

[Chad]             Well, it’s not attached. I mean there’s a difference. That’s one of the reasons that they pass laws saying that you have to tie down your mobile home because that’s actually what attaches it to the land if you don’t have tie-downs and things it’s just private property.

[Jean]               What’s a tie-down. Define your terms.

[Chad]             They’re cables that attach to the i-beams and then attached to the property.

[Ralph]            Let me intervene here. I know somebody that’s doing this. They have a statutory provision that if something is sitting on the land that’s not tied down then it’s not subject to taxing in Alaska. That’s a statutory thing that he’s talking about.

[Jean]               Well, they’re not taxing the fixture. They’re taxing the property.

[Ralph]            Right, but they want to tax the fixture too. That’s your question, isn’t it?

[Chad]             Well, I also wanted to know if you buy your land with cash if there’s any modification to anything that he’s saying because I never…

[Jean]               That doesn’t have anything to do with it. It’s the deed of trust. What you paid for it with doesn’t have anything to do with it. Money, there is no money.

[Chad]             Ok, well, I just heard you talking about mortgages and loans and I never had any of those things but is there any way you can—like put this in a step by step methodical fashion on a web page or something so people can follow it?

[Jean]               Yeah, we have classes on Tuesday nights. If you’ll contact Toby dot Butterworth on Skype he’ll put you in a class. I go into this in great detail.

[Chad]             Skype classes?

[Jean]               Yeah, we have classes, legacy classes on this issue.

[Chad]             Alright, thank you very much.

[Ralph]            Ok, Chad thanks for the call. The next one up, Will in Missouri.

[Will]               In regards to the distinction between land and real estate property, they are important words and do have meaning. In regards to land versus property, however, I think that we’re making an actual error here. We try and separate the section, township and range from a metes and bounds description. The metes and bounds description always begins unless you’re in one of the colonies, original thirteen states, it always begins from a point of beginning which will be one of the corners in the section, township and range. Now, interestingly, and it may be the case, but the…

[Jean]               This goes back before they had land patents.

[Will]               In the US rectangular land survey system all the states have been separated out in sections, township and ranges.  I don’t want to be contentious but where a place might be is that this overlay that you talk of when you look at a subdivision that, let’s just use an example, lot 5, block 2, Edgewood Heights, according to the plat thereof recorded in volume one, page nine in a certain county of a certain state. Now, you have to go into a jurisdiction and make application for that plat. That has to get an approval so that may very well be the overlay. What lays under all land, of course, is this legal description. Now, having done lots of these surveys and mapped them out for title companies and private developers etc I can assure you that you’re not going to get anywhere with the metes and bounds description without section, township and range. Just throw that out for your consideration.

[Jean]               Well, we did it.

[Will]               I’m sorry I’d have to disagree with you.

[Ralph]            Ok, hold on that. I got a question here. You’re a surveyor—right?

[Will]               That’s very, very close.

[Ralph]            … call somebody that does surveying and he said they can do it in metes and bounds but what I think you’re saying also is that the metes and bounds will be tied into the range to some survey that technically is a property title.

[Will]               Absolutely, it has to happen, Ralph, because you always have to have a point of beginning. You can do a metes and bounds but so what, beginning at the southwest corner. Where is the southwest corner? Unless you tie it to the US rectangular land survey system you’re starting from a point no one could ever define so that’s why…to do that.

[Jean]               They started doing that when they started land patents though.

[Will]               I understand that but I’m simply saying…

[Jean]               Under the common law they use metes and bounds. They didn’t do it the way you’re doing it.

[Will]               Sir, please, the thirteen colonies are outside of the US rectangular land survey system. You go back and check your dates and you’ll find that land patents occurred about the same time.

[Ralph]            Hold that thought, here, we’ll let you finish what you’re saying because you’re an important part, you’re a surveyor.

I got a comment here and as soon as I get through with my comment I’d like to hear Will address it first and then, Jean, you can come in and give your point.

[Jean]               How much longer are we going to talk.

[Ralph]            Talk—thirty five minutes.

[Jean]               Because I got my brother coming over. He’s going to take me out to dinner so…

[Ralph]            Ok, well hopefully we…   Ok, Will, if I’m correct metes and bounds is done from some physical object like a creek or something that they could identify with and everything is built off of some known existing thing on the land—is that correct?

[Will]               No, it’s a monument inside of the US rectangular survey system and all of the sections, townships and ranges all across the Western area from the Mississippi over—actually from outside of the original colonial bounds—all of that has been done. And so, you always begin a survey from a known monument. You close the survey on that monument and you can describe a tract of land. Even if you’re describing a lot in a subdivision you can actually go through the extent of simply writing out the full legal description. The only place where Mr. Keating’s argument might be valid would be that when you get involved with a platted piece of property you make application to the jurisdiction, usually it’s almost always the county. And so then it gets recorded, as he says, in the county recorder’s books and so there might be a way of separating out that as property where you’re talking about rights as opposed to a legal description of the land where you’re talking about something that is immovable and impermanent and runs from the center of the earth to the sky.

[Ralph]            Ok, let me ask you this question. In metes and bounds, metes and bounds has to be by something that’s sitting on the land somewhere described. I’ve seen it so many feet from some creek or something like that—is that correct?

[Will]               It’s always on norhings and eastings beginning at a point on the southwest corner of the southeast corner of section 7, township 24, range 4 east…

[Ralph]            No, I mean a true metes and bounds.

[Will]               Yeah, this is what I’m giving you. I’m giving you, always start from a point of beginning and thence north 253 feet along such-and-such of a compass bearing, then east and then west and all the way back down thus to the point of beginning. And that’s the way they’re done, that’s the way they’re surveyed, that’s the way they’re written…

[Ralph]            Ok, let me clarify my question. If it were a true metes and bounds there wouldn’t be any range or anything. It would just say so many feet from something known—right?

[Will]               No, no, no, it’s always section, township and range. You’re either going to start from a section corner, a township, a range, you’re always tying it in. It’s inside of a…  It’s called a cadastral survey system. You’re always working from the same known point.

[Ralph]            Ok, let me restate my question. In the thirteen colonies, what would a true metes and bounds…

[Will]               In the thirteen colonies it was a completely different system and so oft times it would follow a fence line—they call them fence line surveys—sometimes it would be from the confluence of one creek and the other but it was so variable and it was so difficult to—and it caused so much grief as time elapsed. Those original blazes and marks and stone cairns, those things all got destroyed and they’re gone and this other system that they came up with which is really wonderful, that’s what allows us to use GPS global governance today but the new system is fixed to the planet’s surface.

[Ralph]            Ok, why couldn’t I take a fixed something to the planet’s surface and then say it is 355 feet that way, 444 feet that way and around and keep it right in feet from a known thing without using range and all that? Why couldn’t I do that?

[Will]               You might be able to but you’d be working inside of an existing plat and when anybody that knows what they’re doing look at it they’d scratch their head and they’d ask you to go hire a surveyor. No surveyor would ever put his seal on something like that.

[Ralph]            So what you’re saying is nobody’s ever going to take a known place and do metes and bounds, is that…?

[Will]               Not that way. Not outside of the thirteen colonies. It will have to tie back to section, township or range or you’re just not doing a survey.

[Jean]               Well, I got a book that goes into this. It explains the whole concept.

[Will]               I surveyed…and spent eight years doing it and I would represent it in court too and there’s lots of books out there. I have lots of books in my library and there’s tons of books on the internet, sir, but I would start with go to the Bureau of Land Management and get the manual on the US rectangular survey system and begin there.

[Jean]               All land management property is based upon land patents.

[Will]               I’ve taken enough time. Thank you very much, Ralph.

[Ralph]            Ok, thank you, sir. Thank you for your input there, Will. You got a comment. We got three more callers here we got to get to here for sure.

[Jean]               In ancient times they did distance and direction, not like he’s saying. I have a book that goes into this whole concept. {Look up the riddle of Berosis and the Egyptian survey system (3,4,5 right triangle) that fixed the location of Noah’s Ark to the Persian Meridian and also the Great Pyramid at Gisa.} He explained the difference between land description and property description. And what they’re doing is laying their right-of-way over onto your land and then they’re taxing it.

[Ralph]            Let me ask you this question, why can’t I have a land description with their current writs just based on the system of metes and bounds? Why can’t I have my land by their type of measurement? What’s going to prohibit me from doing that?

[Jean]               Well, when they started land patents they divided the United States up into military districts. The land patents were based on military districts.

[Ralph]            So what you’re saying is we have to go back…

[Jean]               They gave it to the soldiers that’s what started land patents. They gave all the soldiers that fought in the Civil War from the North land grants (named for General Grant) from the crown which is a privilege. They gave them property based on a land patent or a land grant.

[Ralph]            Jean fell off here—I guess he said he had to go. I wasn’t aware of that so I apologize to all of the other listeners and if any of the listeners want to ask me a question but I can tell you unequivocally I had tracked this back to Torrens. I think he was from Australia or something (correct) and I am going to get to the bottom of this like I did on the IRS nonsense. I want to see evidence, I want to see the  proof, and I want to be able to prove it. It’s good to have somebody that’s in like Will. It looks to me like I could still—I know I can—they cannot steal my property. If this was in New York, it may still be in Arkansas, allodium title or land, allodial title or allodium which is all the land which I’ve still got to research that out, but the right, right of possession, right of property which is Blackstone, it’s called a perfect legal title by damn in this country we are not under feudal tenure. I did check out something that Jean said, the land patents are a quiet title which is a fee simple and technically fee simple is feudal tenure because I checked out a bank down here and they have fee simple absolute and they do us fee simple. So what’s that tell you? That’s where you find out what’s really going on even though there’s a couple of different cases that say fee, fee simple and fee simple absolute are all the same and that is absolutely untrue. Anyway, who’s the next caller we got on line here? Marty, from Ohio, you got a question for me. I don’t know if I could help you but we’ll have a go at it.

[Marty]            Ok, I just had two simple questions. One was the difference between a loan and a mortgage and then my other question was he said something about you would give back the note but not the deed of trust and then later on he said that they can’t give back the note to you. So, I wanted to clarify the promissory note. That’s what they can’t give back to you—right?

[Ralph]            Well, when we went down to Anchorage here we went in to get a copy, supposedly the original, and there was no original promissory note. There was no original deed of trust and on the back on a separate sheet that overlaid that which I got a copy of it says here, ‘pay to the order of Countrywide Homeloan Inc without recourse, Countrywide Bank FSB, FKA Countrywide Bank NA, national association, and then they got a signature and a senior vice-president. There’s three of those and it’s a separate piece of paper over a deed of trust and unfortunately I don’t feel competent to provide an answer because I haven’t got to the bottom of it but I guarantee you at some point I am going to. I can’t answer your question. I’m just not qualified yet.

[Marty]            What about the mortgage and loan?

[Ralph]            I’m not qualified yet. I wish I could answer your question but I have what I think it is but I just don’t have enough. I could tell you that if you have possession, right of possession, right of property you have a perfect legal title and that’s called allodium. And I’ve got to research out this Torrens Land Act because I had—I think that guy was out of Australia (correct) and I tracked that back into the 1850s as I recall. That’s been a lot of years ago. And I want to go back to the beginning and the truth will be there. I know these guys are lying to us. I just don’t know how they’re lying to us yet and I will find it. It’s just like the agency stuff, this IRS, it’s absolutely when you can see it and it’s black and white. I can prove it. The IRS is a done issue. I can prove it by statutory law. It’s right there, bam, bam, there is no assessment because there’s no assessment regulations and I can prove there aren’t any so therefore it’s over and you cannot have a collection, you can’t do tax evasion, you can’t do a damned thing without an assessment and there’s no legal duty for assessment. It’s over—done.

[Marty]            May I ask one more question?

[Ralph]            Absolutely. I probably can’t answer it if it’s off the subject—go ahead.

[Marty]            I have a friend and he has cited Title 42, 403H and he says in there that states that you must pay your tax…

[Ralph]            Oh, that’s social security.

[Marty]            On the 15^th day of April.

[Ralph]            That’s social security, I think, Title 42, 403?

[Marty]            Yeah—H. Is that…

[Ralph]            Yeah, the H says you have no rights, you’re stuck, you’re stuck in Congress’ prison plantation. See, that tells you right off the bat because that is something I’m also very familiar with because under 5 USC 553a2 any benefit does not require a substantive a force and effect of law. When you signed up for a benefit you have said, ‘yessa, Master, here I is, come and get me.’ That’s absolutely true.

[Marty]            Ok, thank you.

[Ralph]            Ok, Larry in Florida.

[Larry]             Earlier you all said that, you were talking about trusts and the settler, the grantor, the trustee, the beneficiary, they can all be the same person which you all just described was a living trust.

[Ralph]            I wasn’t aware that can happen but it very well may be true. So it’s actually called a living trust?

[Larry]             Thousands of people a day do living trusts. It’s just a way to avoid probate and some other things but they’re the grantors, the trustees and the beneficiary of that trust and when the parties, the grantors die, then it becomes an irrevocable trust.

[Ralph]            Ok. Then what happens and who’s the trustee and the people that were the beneficiaries?

[Larry]             You name a successor trustee and there’s a successor beneficiary. It’s a secondary beneficiary which is generally the kids. So a living trust is, for instance an irrevocable trust you can pass assets into a revocable trust and avoid estate taxes but in a living trust since the grantor is the trustee and the beneficiary that property is still included in somebody’s estate for estate tax purposes.

[Ralph]            Ok, so the person dies so then the successor trustee and successor beneficiary they’re going to pay taxes?

[Larry]             Yes, they’ll pay state taxes similar to husband and wife were the original grantors then the event of the second spouse is when taxes are due.

[Ralph]            Ok, is there a type of living will or living trust that that could be prevented?

[Larry]             That could prevent estate taxes?

[Ralph]            Yes.

[Larry]             Only if you set up an irrevocable trust then what you’re doing is taking property and gifting that over into an irrevocable trust which is usually controlled by the trustee who is a child or a corporate trustee.

[Ralph]            Ok, and who’s the beneficiary, the child?

[Larry]             Typically, or a charity.

[Ralph]            Ok…

[Larry]             The parent, the grantor, the original grantor no longer has control of that property once they gift it.

[Ralph]            Can they get any money out of that type of a trust, any sort of fees…?

[Larry]             No, not without invalidating the trust.

[Ralph]            ok.

[Larry]             I mean, you all brought it up and you brought it up and a living trust is as typical as any other estate planning tool document. It’s probably the most widely used, put it that way.

[Ralph]            That’s not an area…  That’s why we need people like you that are willing—different people that have these expertise to come and call in..  Great for this show is the one, I know these guys on these mortgages and these notes. I know the suckers are lying to us. I know they’re stealing our land and by damn I’m going to get to the bottom of it.

[Larry]             By the way, just so you all know, 60 Minutes is on Eastern Standard Time. They have a good show on tonight, a good segment on how the state and local governments are flat out broke and the day of reckoning has come so state employees and their precious pension programs and benefit programs etc are in jeopardy.

[Ralph]            Well, I can tell you something that most people do not know. Did you know that the employees of the State of Alaska do not contribute to the social security plan, did you know that?

[Larry]             I only know it because you’ve said it before.

[Ralph]            There are municipalities that do not do that. They put their money and it’s theirs, its fast, they put it into funds and when they retire they get maybe a quarter million maybe up to a half million, a million dollars at the right age, tax free. They get a check. under social security so now why does the social security not work when this is the same plan in the State of Alaska and these others don’t because they’re not stealing them out the backside.

[Larry]             Well, railroad workers don’t have to participate in Social Security plan. They got their own pension program. They don’t participate in Social Security. How about that?

[Ralph]            Yeah, amazing. Ok, well, thanks for calling in. I guess we got some more callers here. I didn’t see it here. Thanks. Ok, John in Idaho, go ahead.

[John]              Hey, Ralph, how you doing today? Good show.

[Ralph]            I got him out of jail, upright and giving them hell.

[John]              Yeah, sounds like it. Anyway, last week when you had Jean Keating on he told us that we would be able to get a hold of the American Land Titles Association in Washington, D.C., gave us the appropriate number etc and we, from there, we would find out who holds the abstract of title and find out that it was paid at closing and it’s probably going to be held by Fanny Mae or Freddy and I attempted to find mine this past week and I spoke to the pretty little girl at the reception counter and she says that the gentleman in charge of that department is…and she’ll give you the voice mail and who I’m connected to is a guy who’s the director of government services and leave a message. I never hear back from them. I tried about three or four times and got the same situation and I’m wondering if you know of anybody that got through to talk to this guy and if not, what’s our recourse? We got to subpoena that record or…

[Ralph]            Well, I don’t know. I got through because I tried it and I test these things. They said you need to get a hold of the local people in your local state and call them and get an abstract of title.

[John]              Local people meaning who? Like county?

[Ralph]            Well, it means like Stuart Land Title or one of these title companies.

[John]              Right from the title company locally?

[Ralph]            Yeah, that was the word I got. I went through what you did but I got a different response. So, that’s interesting.   …give him the same response at this number.

[John]              Yeah, and I didn’t even talk to anybody. I just talked to a receptionist who had no information on it.

[Ralph]            Well, I’m glad you tested it because that’s what we need to do because we are going to get this resolved. Like I say, IRS and agencies I understand. I do not understand this nonsense but I am going to learn it.

[John]              I’m with you all the way, Ralph.

[Ralph]            I applied to the FBI and the CIA to go to work for them, didn’t you, back when I was younger?

[John]              Never heard that.

[Ralph]            Yeah. You know why they wouldn’t hire me?

[John]              No idea.

[Ralph]            I have loose lips.   I can’t keep government secrets.

[John]              I’ll get a hold of my local people and I’ll give you a report back next week.

[Ralph]            Ok, we’re going to beat these suckers. I guarantee you. We got a local quiet title action going right now in Dillingham and I tell you, I’m tenacious and I’m not for sale. Anyway, thanks for calling.

[John]              Ok, thanks, Ralph—bye.

[Ralph]            Gary, in Georgia—next.

[Gary]              Ralph, I got about two comments. One is I would like to be able to contact Jean Keating and I appreciate your excellent program because I’m researching like yourself. I’ve been researching and even been an expert witness. Expert witness in federal court on the APA. And what you’ve espoused about the regulations, I was doing that in the nineties. The people dumbed down. But thanks to you I have a friend here in Georgia, not just him, another one in Alabama, they understand everything since the bankruptcy of March 9, 1933. It’s all administrative through our fourth branch of government. And because even nothings judicial, everything from traffic to you name it is based on a privilege. You got to have a license and people like a police officer. In my state the commissioner of driver services is in charge of traffic. That would be license, moving violations or what and it’s a published regulation. However, the police officer he never even shows—he wants to claim that he’s carrying out a judicial…through some traffic court, a recorder’s court, whatever name they want to give it. They’re not really courts, just administrative tribunals themselves because you can’t have jury trials, you can’t have anything but my point is he’s not even delegated and administratively after you have to exhaust your administrative remedies before you can be regulated you got to be one of the regulated people, not one of the We the People in everybody’s Constitution.

[Ralph]            Well, I’ll tell you what, this…is come unglued—it is.

[John]              It is, yes sir. And one of the things you really had a good point on. I’ve learned everything is securitized and I encourage people to go look at their state and look in securities laws because, as you said, I’ve even heard of when you sign for a license it’s a security.

[Ralph]            That’s found in every state. Look at the word, register, it’s in the UCC and search on register in…  Send me a state and I’ll tell you it’s….  the word, register, or different parts of it means a certificated security and it’s right on the certificate of title that they give us for the motor vehicle in Alaska. It’s right there in plain sight.

[John]              Right, and every case is litigated. They issue a bond and…and they call the company and through the book of states back in the thirties when it went through the bankruptcy every governor signed this book of governors. Anyway, they’re all connected to… And even the traffic issue is connected to the Department of Transportation Title 49.

[Ralph]            Ok, thanks for calling. I have two callers.

Ok, we’re back here and we got three hours and fifty seconds and, Tom, go ahead in Alaska. You got a question?

[Tom]              Yeah, Ralph, I just had a couple things I wanted to raise with Jean but he had to go, I guess. On a survey why can’t you use latitude and longitude? That’s been around a lot longer even than our country.

[Ralph]            Yeah, I don’t know. I’m going to get to the bottom of metes and bounds because I think you could still do metes and bounds within the world of their grid work from a certain known point and still be fine. That’s something I have to research. I don’t know the answer.

[Tom]              Just take, for example, …meridian, that’s a meridian line. Why couldn’t you use something like that? It’s a known point. They got a road on it.

[Ralph]            I don’t know. Will in Missouri was very familiar being a surveyor so I don’t know, Tom, but I’ll tell you what, we are going to find out.

[Tom]              Well, he might be a surveyor but he might be on the other side too. You never know.

[Ralph]            Well, yeah, but we have to understand the system. He seemed very familiar…

[Tom]              Not everybody is going to agree with this point of view.

[Ralph]            No, I understand. WE got to take the old people that do it for a living and then we test it, we think about it and there’s a way to own our land and by damn, we’re going to get there.

[Tom]              Another thing that I would like to know. Maybe it’s in Blacks Fifth or something, I’ve never looked it up but maybe the legal definition of property would be interesting to know.

[Ralph]            Yep, I got all that. WE don’t have enough time, Tom, here. I’m sorry I got to get to Theodore in New York and give him just about a minute here. Thanks, Tom. Theodore in New York, you got about a little over a minute.

[Theodore]      How are you Mr. Winterowd. Do you have a remedy for IRS levy?

[Ralph]            Yes, absolutely. There’s a way to deal with these bastards. It’s not easy but yes.

[Theodore]      I need to be put in contact with somebody. I’m having problems.

[Ralph]            ok, well my e-mail is ralph@jusbelli.com . Anybody that thinks knowing the trust does not make it easy I guarantee you and I’ve been to the Supreme Court with a guy, I believe load tested all sorts of things and now that we’re finally getting understanding and can conclusively prove they can’t do what they’re doing. I mean that doesn’t mean they’re going to roll over. You got to be in it for the long haul. But I can…

[Theodore]      Thank you, sir.

[Ralph]            Ok, you bet you. Well, I’ll tell you what, I’m sorry that Jean had to go for the last half hour. I thought he was going to be here for two hours and I appreciate all the callers that called in and the information we got today and we’re going to get to the bottom of this. I’m telling you. I’m not trying to be arrogant, belligerent, I understand the fourth branch of government. I can proved conclusively they don’t have anything. Now, somebody said they found one that totally complied with 553b, c, and d. I’ve never seen one yet with what’s called a substantive regulation and had the force and effect of law. There’s always something wrong—always. They will look like they do but they don’t because they’ll go in and modify the APA or they won’t do the effective date right or something. They can’t do it. I’ve got a recording, IRS, we don’t do anything but interpretive regs—that’s it, that’s all they do. And I can conclusively prove it. It’s in the thirteen volumes down at the law library and that’s part of the $250 package that I give you. I’ll give you copies of it and explain it. Tell me it ain’t so. It’s their stuff. We are going to get to the bottom of this damned mortgage foreclosure nonsense. I don’t pretend to understand it yet. I know it’s a lie. I know it’s not true. We’re going to get there and as I say, we’ve got a quiet title action that I’ve been involved with and we’re going to try to get this out in the open.  City of Dillingham in Alaska—it’s another bunch of criminals and crooks. We are going to get this done. So, anyway, I appreciate everybody listening and hopefully we learn something today and as I always say, watch out for the federales, they’re everywhere and stay safe and we will see you next Sunday.

Previous Sunday, December 12, 2023 Interview

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